There seems to be an attitude among many online marketers that “gurus” are mean, bad people. After all, they are making lots more money than the bashers and they are not giving their products away to everyone who asks nicely. So they must be big meanies.
Beware. Often the more vocal the bashing someone is doing, the less successful these bashers are in their own online business.
Don’t fall into the trap of believing all the bad things you read about the gurus.
First, if you look at the definition of “guru”, you’ll find that essentially a guru is a teacher, a mentor, a leader, an expert.
So by definition a guru is someone who has achieved success and a position of leadership – and who has been generous enough to reach back and help others follow in her/his footsteps. By my standards, a guru is a good guy.
Second, there seems to be glory in some circles in criticizing anyone who has achieved guru status. They use titles and comments like “secrets the gurus don’t want you to know,” “what the gurus are hiding,” “don’t fall into the gurus’ trap.” These are just sales hype in disguise.
The people using this approach are often
1) not financially successful in their online business
2) resent that others are more successful
3) not willing to follow someone else’s lead
4) come across as small-minded and mean-spirited
Third, I know many of the “gurus” personally. And I will personally vouch that they work HARD for what they achieve. Because they worked hard to get where they are, they now have choices. Some choose to continue working full-time while others take time off for more leisurely activities.
While it might appear that they “do nothing” to earn a substantial income, that is not the case when you look deeper. And even though they are willing to share their knowledge and information – they are not willing to give it away!
That goes back to the basic attitude of many people online that everything should be cheap or free so that they can build their online business. That’s the “poor me” attitude – and you’ll find it pervasive among people who are not making a lot online.
Just because you are building an online business doesn’t mean it is free. Building a sustainable business takes an investment of time and money, whether it’s online or offline. Those who recognize this succeed much faster.
So is there a connection between their attitude and their results when it comes to guru-bashers?
I think so. When you build your success by beating down other people, it may appear that you are growing your business. But in reality you won’t go far. After all, at some point you may actually want one of the gurus you’ve been bashing to promote your product!
So let’s stop the guru bashing and recognize it for what it is – a sales tactic. You’ll hear many people talk about gurus in a negative sense. Just accept that they are using it to create a “we” versus “them” attitude so that you’ll get on the “we” side and buy their product.
It’s not all bad, but it’s not a tactic that I would employ. Nor is it one I would recommend to my students. Sometimes you have to look beyond the guru bashing language to find quality products. After all, even non-gurus make mistakes, but they may still offer a quality product.
I don’t know what has stimulated this post but I know if you put it up, it’s become an issue.
I have about 3 internet gurus that I idolize (and you are tops amongst them) and each of them is the epitome of kindness, generosity and UNselfishness. They are (as are you) willing to reach out and help anyone and everyone that needs it- you guys never make fun of anyone and always are available.
The “gurus” that irritate me are there and what I see is that they are using the sensationalism to sell more products – and for the reasons you wrote. I have gotten to the point where I can stay away from them and stick to the people I cherish – you three!
Thanks for putting this up.
Terrie
Actually no one thing prompted this, but it’s a topic I’ve been thinking about for quite a while. Just thought it was time to speak out. And I’ll be adding another related post in a few days, since I found even more fodder for my perspective.
As always I am flattered by your praise and particularly pleased to be among your 3 choices. Thanks for your comment!
Jeanette
I agree with you completely on this topic. First, it isn’t nice or professional to ‘bash’ anyone. We must remember that it is a small world when it comes to online marketing, and you do not want to get a reputation for always being negative. Second, I don’t know of any gurus that ever refer to themselves in that way, just as I do not know any celebrities who use that word either, and I know quite a few people personally who fall into one of those categories when the masses are talking about them.
We must all take responsibility for our actions, and realize that it does take hard work to achieve our goals.
You are so right! One of the ironies of guru bashing is that that is exactly the level of success they are purporting to shoot for! But subconsciously they are undermining themselves. Because while you may SAY you want to be successful, if you are bad-mouthing that success, your subconscious is saying “I don’t want people talking that way about me” – and voila! You sabotage your success and wonder why…
Jeanette
Hello Jeanette,
Great post. I do have one area that I think some of the Gurus might
do a little bashing of their own. Notice I say some of the
Gurus or I would be guilty of stereotyping as I mentioned in
my blog post. I have a post on the bashing
of DIVAs. I use the name Empowerment Diva for branding and don’t feel
all DIVAs whether for branding or not should be put in a box, as all Gurus should not be put in a box. In my post I share some of my thoughts on what I feel about this, especially from one who has an audience that is greatly influenced by them.
I gained much respect for Gurus such as Ali Brown, because I got closer and learned about her life and where she came from.
To onlookers it appears easy, some of the tactics may seem like
a bunch of hype, however, you must first become educated on and then make an educated decision on whether you choose to hear the individual’s (and I say individual’s)message but you don’t need to feel that you are gaining an advantage by bashing. Interesting topic.
There are some Gurus that should read your post and maybe they’ll realize that they’ve been doing a little bashing of their own.
(smile)
Robin – That’s interesting. When you said “diva” I immediately formed a picture in my mind of a spoiled opera star demanding all sorts of unreasonable requests. 🙂
So perhaps it’s a matter of conditioning. Depending on who you learned from you may have a bad picture of a diva or a guru. So it might be as simple as reframing the terms. And of getting to know the PERSON, not just the term.
Thanks for contributing that!
Jeanette
Great post Jeanette. My question: what are folks specifically bashing? The information itself? Or the guru’s style? If it’s anything personal about how we live our lives, then I agree. It’s none of our business how someone uses their blessings.
If the tactics are not working for our clients, then let’s pay attention to that. This information could be a great source of improvement for the next version.
My philosophy: fix the problem, ignore the personal attacks. Professional jealousy is everywhere. We choose how to spend our energy.
Vickie – you are so wonderfully practical! I love the way you summarized it with easy steps in your last paragraph.
And you bring up a good point – perhaps some of the criticism might be warranted, in the case of some poor product quality or sleazy marketing practices. In fact, I think that many of the recent push-back coming from the FTC and Visa is a result of some of these bad practices.
Thanks for contributing to the conversation!
Jeanette
Jeanette, I couldn’t agree with you more… though I have to confess that it sometimes feels a little more personal to me when I see this trend toward being snide about gurus, because that’s my branding… I am The Job Search Guru, and the guru title fits perfectly for me, as someone who really knows what I’m doing, and is willing to share it with those who want to learn.
It was a few years ago at one of your seminars that my new business model for http://www.TheJobSearchGuru.com was born, and I’ll always appreciate your role and inspiration in that. From you, I learned how to get my years of experience into written form, and how to sell my ebook. You are indeed an online marketing guru.
Don’t worry, most of us out here can tell the difference between the real deal gurus who have valuable information to share, and those who want to sell their message with negativity towards their peers. I’m sure there’s a market for each style, but I’ll stick with the positive people, thanks!
Leslie – thanks for sharing that! I’ll proudly wear the mantel of “guru” I’m always so pleased to hear I’ve been able to help someone else leverage their expertise! You’ve gone on to create a great brand, so your title of “guru” is the result of hard work, as well as smart marketing.
I’m with you – we’ll stick with the positive people!
Jeanette
Jeanette, nice point and is always the way I thought about it. “Guru’s” are experts that know the ins-outs of the industry. As you mentioned, it is just a sales tactic to grab attention, and as we all know, they are some good guru’s and some that don’t care. But, all in all, the term guru needs to be spread more in a positive light, because if it wasn’t for the guru’s, most of us wouldn’t acheived success in the 1st place. Great post 😉
Thanks, Terrance. Appreciate your comment! Help spread the word on the positive definition of guru.
Jeanette
The term “guru” is misleading. I think it *is* appropriate to assess effectiveness of mentors of any kind, whether or not we think of them as gurus.
Some people are better at doing than teaching and vice versa. I’d say it’s more important to focus on how you will be taught and mentored than the fame or fortune of the mentor.
There *are* some high-powered mentors who take on more teaching and training they can handle. They don’t return calls or emails. They turn over their classes to “coaches” who may or may not be effective. They find it hard to say no so they take on more mentees than they have time to handle or they take on mentees who are not a good fit.
I think it would be helpful to talk more openly about how to hire and work with a mentor effectively, and to recognize that no one mentor will be right for everyone.
Most of all, mentors are like banks. People who gain the most don’t need them. They’re the ones who say, “I will make it, with or without this mentor.”
Very few mentors can help until you have identified a hungry market and a sense of passion and purpose to serve that market. Once you’ve got that established you will probably succeed and a mentor will make your good success better. If you haven’t identified a hungry market, and you’re no no mentor can help.
Cathy – I like the idea of writing more on how to choose a mentor, whether it’s paid or free. I think many people are trying to follow too many mentors, which is one of the reasons they become confused and “frozen” in inaction.
And I totally agree that even though someone can DO it themselves it doesn’t mean they can TEACH or COACH someone else to do it. So that choice is very important.
Personally I don’t mind if someone hires coaches to give personal attention to their students, as long as they are up front about it. If someone is highly visible and too busy to take on personal coaching at a price you can afford, you can still get access to their information, even with an outside coach. So I see it as a solution for many people, both the experts and the students who use their system.
Thanks for your thought-provoking comments –
Jeanette
I agree, Jeanette.
I had to laugh, as there are some well-known ‘gurus’ who write sales letters for themselves and in them, refer to themselves as regular guys, and then place themselves and their product in contrast with what is provided by unnamed ‘gurus’ – more of a positioning statement than anything.
But they aren’t really bashing, and certainly aren’t naming anyone (or even describing anyone in a way that would point to a particular person).
Public attacks or denigration of anyone is not a practice to be proud of, and certainly should be avoided. And as you can’t go back and remove a comment you have made on the internet, it’s really important to think of each post or comment as living ‘out there’ forever, under your name. Thanks for a provocative and thought-producing post!
Deb – that’s funny that some people position themselves as “non-gurus” when they obviously are. I don’t think I thought of it from that perspective. 😉
You are so right – comments made online live forever – at archive.org if nowhere else! So people need to remember that. It WILL come back to haunt you if you’re not careful.
Thanks for your contribution!
Jeanette
You don’t have to make someone else little to make yourself big. It is my experience that people who have to put other people down in any fashion have low self-esteem and bashing others is how cope with it.
I have a few gurus that I think are the best and you happen to be one of them Dr. Cates!
Suzan – Thanks! I agree – it’s a bad practice and possibly a bad habit. So the sooner someone gets over it, the better off they will be.
Jeanette
When did “GURU” become the latest 4 letter word?
I think that most bashing comes from people that haven’t actually met or spent any time with a REAL guru.
Do most charge a lot of money… heck yes…
are they worth it?
EVERY penny and then some.
Awesome post, I can’t wait to see you in LA!
That’s funny, Lance – I didn’t even think of guru as a four-letter word! And I agree – most people who are guru-bashing have never had the opportunity to meet the people they are criticizing. Maybe it’s a fear of the unknown.
Enjoy your webinar tonight – and I’ll see you in LA!
Jeanette
Hi Jeanette, The way I see “bashing” anyone or anything (and I confess I have done some of this in the past) is that it is much easier to be a reflexive-reactive spectator than to be a productive-proactive innovator and hard worker.
My firm commitment now is to follow my mother’s advice: “If you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all.” :o)
Really, there are “good apples” and “not-so-good apples” in any “barrel,” whether that “barrel” is holding internet marketing gurus, people in the education system, the government, the unions, whatever.
It is up to me to separate the good apples from the not-good apples, sometimes with the help of a “guru,” eh? And to make as little public fuss as possible while I am doing the sorting.
Unless I want to comment on the good apples, which is always sound policy I think! You’re a good apple, Jeanette! Thanks for being on my side, even when I don’t know what I’m doing, eh?
Blessings,
Doc Meek, South Jordan, Utah, USA
Calgary and Edmonton, Alberta, CANADA
Doc – you have such a way with words! I always love hearing from you. And thanks for counting me among the “good apples.”
Jeanette
I was just having a conversation about this with someone the other day. We agreed that the inner “bashing” we do is from jealousy and resentment, pure and simple. These things come from within us and have absolutely nothing to do with the “subjects” of our “bashing.” And I agree that the “gurus” I have come in contact with are helpful, genuine people who overdeliver on just about all of their products. If I do come across someone online whose product is less than desireable or doesn’t meet my needs, I always receive a quick, courteous refund….and/or I can just unsubscribe from their mailings. Simple…..no bashing required! Bashing is counterproductive and is much more harmful to the (spirit of) the “basher” than to the “bashee.”
It appears that this is a topic that is increasingly being discussed here and around the ‘net, Tom. I think it’s because there are more people online, more people claiming to be “gurus” and disappointing those who follow them, and just more open discussion about a lot of things. In fact, I’ve been looking into more articles and posts on this topic (who knew there would be results on guru bashing!). So you’re not alone in talking about it.
Thanks for your contribution to the conversation.
Jeanette
Jeanette- Well said.
I’ve been the target of a few of these bashers (although I certainly don’t consider myself a guru), and- the ones who aren’t posting anonymously- are uniformly jealous and broke. The anonymous ones are the most vitriolic, and the least informed.
If they were to put the time and energy into building something positive that they spend on trying to tear down others, they’d be much better off.
I’ve decided to just block and ignore em.
Thanks for speaking up.
Thanks, Pat – glad to see you here! Yes, I can imagine that you’ve been targeted. You are indeed a guru, whether you want to claim it or not. A lot of people have learned from you and continue to do so. I guess it just comes with the territory.
Stop by another time – we’re always glad to hear your perspective!
Jeanette
Frankly, I don’t think that the true ‘gurus’ are the problem, or the
target of many ‘guru bashers’ – unless particular ones are mentioned
by name.
Unfortunately in this biz, there is a very large and vocal group who
believe in ‘fake it till you make it’, and in ‘expert by association’.
This had led to the financial rape of MANY a newbie and semi-
experienced marketer, as well as the failure of many who follow info
and tactics that simply do not work, and are being led down a primrose
path.
True gurus don’t sell dreams. True gurus teach ‘the way’ to ‘enlightenment’ or ‘fulfillment’, whether it be spiritual or financial or…..
I DO do some bashing – because it’s needed in some cases to wake
people up to the fact that just because some people ‘teach’, doesn’t
mean that they are qualified to – or that everything that they read
on the internet is ‘fact’.
And there are PLENTY of ‘teachers’ in this industry that wouldn’t
make a CENT if they had to rely on the garbage they spout to make a
living.
I do, however, try to distinguish between the ‘gooroo’ (my term) &
the guru.
Ignoring the problem won’t make it go away, and, as ethical business
people, it’s our JOB to protect this industry & the people who come
to it looking to better their life.
Regards,
Stuart Halpryn
NetActivated.com
I love your “gooroo” term, Stuart! It might be something to catch on in the online terminology.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It puts a different perspective on why someone would want to bash a gooroo.
Jeanette
Hi Jeanette,
Interesting article. I, too, wondered if something happened to prompt you to write it, and obviously, it is a topic many are interested in and is controversial.
For me, I have no negative feelings at all about the term “guru,” likely because I can speak a foreign language in which that word actually does mean teacher, such as in school.
As far as gurus only being bashed because of the basher’s failures, we need to take a look at the motives behind such “reporting” by these folks to see whether it is just a ploy to get traffic and sales, or if there is some purer motive for the nofticiation.
Like in everything, I believe there is a balance here. I agree that it is not healthy or professional to spew reputation-hurting information unnecessarily. And as has been mentioned above, the wisest course all the way around is to not publicly defame anyone, lest it come back to bite you.
That being said, I must say that I do personally know of a couple cases where some big name “guru” (of whom I had respected opinions) have definitely fallen from grace in my book because of outright scams and dishonesty of which I know specific details (not hearsay). These are of the type that the FTC are, in fact, cracking down on.
Should it be publicized what they have done on places like blogs and salesletters? I wouldn’t say so. Since ultimately, their practices will (and are now) catching up with them. But it sure has made me be much more cautious about who I trust in the IM space. And quite honestly, as has been mentioned by a few others above, I have narrowed my attention down to only a handful of “real deal” gurus and have shut out all the other noise. We each need to discern who we will “follow” and be responsible for our own choices.
And Jeanette, I’m sure you know that I have long chosen you as one who has been a straight arrow and who has been a great help for me, especially when I first starting on the online path. So I am very grateful for you.
Gabrielle
Thank you for your kind words, Gabrielle. I definitely value your opinion!
I think the biggest group hurt by the unscrupulous marketers are those who are newer online. If they don’t happen to find the right people to follow they will be taken for a ride – and end up distrusting everyone who sells how-to information online. So I guess that really puts the onus back on us as marketers. We need to be sure our materials and reputation get out there to new marketers online. But it’s often the case that those who can’t be trusted market more aggressively – and therefore are the first to be found.
Yes – while the FTC and Visa guidelines have created some hustling for those of us who do business online, they have also helped sort out the “bashable” group with their less than stellar sales tactics. So it’s worth it in the end.
As always I appreciate your thoughtful comments and your taking the time to share them with us –
Jeanette
Hey Jeanette,
Great article! And I agree with you about how hard many of the “guru’s” work…we have many of the same friends. I do feel, however, that there are times when something needs to be said. Not bashing…that’s not the answer…but there should be accountability in some form.
I’ve felt for a while now that there needs to be better policing from within the IM community because there are abuses happening. People selling hope, when the best part of the product is the salesletter…AND…there is a lot of infringement of intellectual property rights. I’ve had it happen to me several times…I’m sure you have too.
I would LOVE to see a more formal organization be established in some form, with best practices, membership policing, etc. where complaints could be filed for those who are bashing, but also for those who aren’t operating above the board. NOT to remove the “maverick” nature of doing business online. It’s full of opportunity still and I’d hate to see creativity and innovation compromised. But I’ll be honest, there are a few 2nd-tier marketers out there that I wouldn’t mind seeing exposed. They promise the world and their products don’t even come close to delivering on their promise. I guess you’ll always have an element of that, but there are certainly ways yet to be explored that could minimize some of it.
Interesting ideas, Tony. I think several people have tried to organize groups before – and of course there are the “trust” sites (which essentially are just technical services). But I think one of the challenges of this group is that there IS no group. Many marketers are refugees from direct mail and other industries. Since not everyone markets the same thing (Internet marketing how-to), there is no common ground.
It is indeed a group of “mavericks” that can’t be easily corralled. (I’m from Texas!) And I think many of the tactics that we deplore have gotten worse with the formation of some “marketing groups” that promote one anothers’ products blindly. It’s almost inbreeding – their lists are so intertwined. So I’m not sure we could harness those along with the mavericks and create any sort of cohesive group who would agree on the guidelines. It will be interesting to watch.
Thanks for coming by, Tony. Always good to see you!
Jeanette
People come in all flavors, some good some bad, some downright despicable. The bad ruin it for everyone.
So no I don’t think internet gurus are all bad, I think the bashers may have found a bad one or just didn’t do what they were taught and decided to gritch about it.
I think we are seeing the results with the FTC and credit card company actions of late. Problem is everyone suffers including the honest ones aas well.
Joe
Joe, I agree. We may actually see the government and large companies doing the cleanup in the industry.
Jeanette
Yes I’m a guru basher.
I used my guru bash to promote myself and my products (which are offline printed marketing materials). Yes it is a part of my tactic. To let you in, “On the secret the guru’s don’t want you to know.” I didn’t name names but I did bash those internet marketers who promote themselves as gurus as part of a flash sales pitch for products which don’t deliver what was promised.
I know my bitterness comes from an experience where I feel I was once sucked in by the sales pitch of one internet marketer who promoted themselves as “a guru” of internet marketing. Who talked about all the money being in “the list” to promote an expensive online success course to follow their example, lead and guidance. Aside from delaying and then not delivering on all of the promised course content, they also left out of the training course the fact that most of their income and success actually came from old-fashioned direct marketing using offline mediums. For that reason the term “guru’s” leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
I don’t resent anyone their success and I respect the hard work they have put in to gain that success.
But I do not like the sneaky and deceptive sales pitches of some who may falsely portray themselves as gurus. After my bad experience with just one.
At the same time I am aware that not all who wear the label of gurus are the same. By definition of the word, a “guru” could also be labelled a mentor, a leader, an expert and a teacher. Whilst many true gurus may never refer to themselves as such preferring to present themselves as mentors. Or guides who are available to answer your questions, be honest and upfront. I find those terms to be much more palatable to me.
I have found many great and successful “Guides and Mentors” along my path, of which I consider Jeanette to be one. Even after a whole day day of contemplating this post I still find the term to be an unsavoury one but I am considering revising my definition to “gooroos” as Stuart previously suggested.
Suzy Molloy
Wow, you scared me, Suzy, starting off admitting you’re a guru basher! But I see where you’re coming from. But that does raise a question – have you tested whether the product sells better with the anti-guru message or better with a pro-information message? That would be interesting to see.
I wonder too if some of the anti-guru sentiment is a reflection of the mood of the country. So much seems to be reported about the “anti” sentiments (if you can believe the news and newspapers.) You see it in protests, hear it on social media. People are unhappy with anyone in power. That could be being transferred to this industry.
Interesting ideas, Suzy. I like your “guides and mentors” – good way to refer to them.
Jeanette
I’d like to vehemently echo and underscore Cathy Goodwin’s remarks here.
And I’m going to age myself when I say this, but am I the ONLY one who read the Ask Ann Landers syndicated advice column?! For crying out loud, if you have a beef with someone, deal with it privately, not publicly. I swear, Jeanette, all the money in the world can’t buy some people an ounce of class.
My question is, what’s the reward in bashing? What’s the payoff? Call me a fool but I can’t imagine it’s anything admirable.
Melanie, I think some people make it a habit to complain about a lot of things. And this may just be part of their standard operating procedure. And as I mentioned in the original post some like to step up based on putting others down.
And yes, I read Ann Landers. 🙂
Jeanette
Jeanette,
I respect, admire, and entirely appreciate what most “gurus” have accomplished and what they share. I know too well that it is never an overnight success we see but instead years of hard work.
What I have seen first hand though in a couple of specific cases is a guru who appears to become so focused on the money that they lose their heart and soul in the process. I also recall one particularly who after day one of a 3 day exclusive high end event, when I commented that there didn’t seem to much content that day, he said “you are right, I could do this in 3 hours, but to justify what I charge, I stretch it to three days.” That to me is unethical, dishonest, and robbery. The bottom line is he didn’t have enough to share so spent the time brewing “koolaid” and just about everyone drank it.
I’d say that in the industry overall 90% are the real deal, worthy of being following, listened to, and learned from (some would consider that very generous) but there is definitely a 10% or more that are charlatans and preaching what isn’t real, what isn’t possible, and taking the money.
This is my experience, no names being shared certainly!
Warmly,
Melissa
Melissa – I’d have shot that guy for his 3 hours of content for the price of 3 days! (Well, not really, but you know what I mean.) And it’s particularly bad to have done that in a live event because it’s not just the tuition, it’s the time and travel costs as well. Yes, those are the types of people who give others a bad name!
I guess it’s like any industry. There are some great people who you want to follow – and there are a certain number who you want to avoid. My concern has been that many “guru bashers” seem to lump everyone who is teaching or sharing information all into the same group – bad, mean people. And that’s when the bashing begins.
Thanks for your thoughts –
Jeanette
Excellent post Jeanette! This is why I make it a habit not to bash gurus. I want to be in those numbers one day and I wouldn’t want people bashing me just because I’m successful. That’s not good business.
Very wise approach, DeAnna. I think those who are bashing haven’t thought through their choices – and where they want to end up. Obviously you have!
Jeanette
Hi Jeanette, I think guru bashing is nothing but lousy sales copy for a lousy product. Unfortunately this sales tactic is nothing more than boiler plate sales copy that can be cranked out quickly for a few hundred bucks. If their product is so wonderful, shouldn’t it be able to stand on its own without the bashing? This type of sale copy should be required to have a disclaimer stating “Run Forest Run”.
That’s funny, George! “run forest run” – that WOULD be a good way to warn people about deceptive sales copy.
Jeanette
I think that much of the “bashing” you decry is in response not so much to the effectiveness of the marketers, but to the viability of the products they market, as well as the lack of transparency and honesty in their marketing efforts.
While I have deep respect for anyone who can effectively market products, that respect is diminished when it is discovered that some marketers’ “success stories” are primarily testimonials offered by associates and would-be coattail riders, yet those same testimonials fail to identify the nature of the relationship to the marketer, much less the “customer’s” vested interest in the marketer’s success.
Furthermore, the marketers that typically find themselves the target of the “bashers” are those who make outlandish guarantees (in large type) as to the effectiveness of their products or programs, yet relegate the more realistic projections of effectiveness (or lack thereof) to the newly FTC-required disclaimers, which are typically placed in much less prominent and accessible areas of their marketing materials.
Finally, there are quite a few marketers who make blatantly outlandish claims, often based in magical “secret” processes. One in particular even goes so far as to claim that the incessant need to acquire more material possessions and accolades is consistent with Buddhist teachings. Too many customers are seduced into abandoning common sense in their search for magical results, as well as being misinformed about well-documented methods for improving one’s life.
In short, the real objections are to the dishonesty that is at the core of so many IM’s efforts. It should come as no surprise that there is also frustration that such dishonesty is so greatly rewarded. It should also be noted that the vast majority of the “bashing” comes from individuals who are not Internet marketers at all.
I think the FTC rulings will help, but we have to keep in mind that they are complaint-driven. So someone can get by with all sorts of things if no one complains. Unfortunately, I’m not sure that a lot of bashing is done by those who feel the products are poor – some people just make it a habit to speak poorly of anyone who is more successful than they are. It doesn’t take any provocation.
We as consumers have to be aware of the sales approaches and tactics used – and use some common sense. Yes, many sales letters are tempting – but that’s part of the process we need to learn. Any sales process whether online or offline is designed to make us want to buy. Where I worry particularly about new marketers is they get the idea that they need to buy anything that sounds tempting. It makes them very vulnerable.
Thanks for sharing your perspectives.
Jeanette
“Guru” has more or less become shorthand for any commercially successful expert, and as such is divorced from its original meaning. Today, some people market themselves as “gurus” and some are called “gurus” by default (usually by lazy writers such as myself :-)), but my understanding is that in the original Eastern sense, the title “guru” was not a term a teacher gave himself. It was a title bestowed upon him by his followers/students. At any rate, most of us contemporary Westerners use that term and know what it means. It’s not necessarily used in a derogatory way, even by critics.
However, the main point I want to make is that George Arthur Burks and a few others seem to be confusing genuine criticism with the phony “bashing” (or, more kindly, the phony “reviews”) on those boilerplate sites that purport to sell the *real* secret to success. You know what I’m talking about: the kind of sponsored result that pops up if you type a “guru’s” name into Google and follow it with the word “scam.”
Or maybe I’m the one who’s confused, and Jeanette was indeed referring to that boilerplate stuff instead of the growing number of critics who don’t necessarily have a dog in the IM hunt. If so, I apologize for my misunderstanding. In any case, not everyone who engages in online criticism is a failed IM’er who is simply jealous of IM “gurus'” success. I know very little about Internet Marketing myself, don’t pretend to, and realize that I could probably benefit by learning from some of the greats. However, I *am* cognizant of scams and dirty tricks used by some who have fingers in the IM pie.
Melissa Galt, above, really seems to “get it,” in my opinion. Apart from tricks such as stretching one day of content over three days, one problem as I see it is that certain prominent IM’ers make a habit of deliberately understating how much real work is involved in any type of success. If they’re even moderately successful, they almost certainly work their butts off, but they portray themselves as living a life of ease, making billions effortlessly. (“And you can too…just buy my product/come to my three-day seminar/sign up for my six-day retreat, etc.!”)
I would like to think the “bad apples” are in the minority, but since their names are all over the place, they do leave kind of a bad impression.
Great point Connie – that the bad apples market a lot and seem to be everywhere.
In my original post I was referring to the sales letters, the “scam sites” you referred to and many forums where anyone with a well-known online reputation are maligned – just because they ARE successful. I am most concerned that it’s become a habit and a pervasive attitude. But looking at many of the responses here, I’m finding even broader concerns.
thanks for your well-stated ideas –
Jeanette
OMT – Any industry that fails to police itself will inevitably find itself scrutinized by others. Just as physicians and police had a long history of overlooking internal transgressions, resulting in increased scrutiny & regulation, much of the IM (and especially the self-help segment) industry tends to turn a blind eye to – or worse, actually support and promote – the questionable practices of other members. The most effective method of diffusing the efforts of the “bashers” would be to refuse to promote activities that don’t pass one’s smell test, and perhaps even to form some kind of industry collective to encourage self-policing. If consumers believed that the industry as a whole was committed to ethical business practices, most public complaints would indeed be perceived as sour grapes. Until that commitment is perceived by potential consumers, the “bad apples” will continue to define the industry, and the attempts to denigrate the “bashers” will continue to be perceived as cynical attempts to defend poor business practices.
Jeanette,
Now THAT is the way a community really comes together! Great topic of discussion.
Where my challenge comes from is from folks who call themselves guru’s and aren’t even good, never mind “guru status”. People who determine that they are guru’s as a marketing ploy or worse yet bash others in order to advance have no place in the community. The sad fact is that their actions are often rewarded.
Leslie, I have no problem acknowledging your guru status as you have put in the time, energy and work into truly becoming one. So “Guru On Girl” Let me know how I can support your efforts!
Let’s face it, in many ways internet marketing is about self promotion. But you don’t have to do that at the expense of others, no matter what their moniker is.
Jeaneete, while you may be right in your assumptions of why people do this, I am guessing that in many cases they don’t realize the power that their words have.
I would view their actions more like a salesman who only has one close. They go with that because it works. When it doesn’t work, they will hopefully adapt.
Great points, John. So glad you contributed to the community discussion. Wish everyone were a good community member – but then I guess we wouldn’t have any guru bashing or anything to discuss. 🙂
Jeanette
Jeanette – I’m not concerned with sales letters that are “tempting.” If they weren’t tempting, why write them in the first place? My concern is with the marketing practices (such as those I described) that are deceptive. Incestuous testimonials. Distortion of facts (and even religious tenets). Absurd “magical” promises. False or misleading credentials. Overstated claims of personal success.
I think if one is willing to do some rudimentary research and attempt to look objectively at what most of the “guru bashers” are saying, it would become clear that the “jealousy” factor is simply not a valid factor in many cases. By abandoning summary dismissiveness and defensiveness in favor of objectivity and transparency, some real problems would be brought to light and could hopefully be diminished. Such an effort would benefit not only consumers, but the IM industry itself.
To date, there has been more energy expended in issuing those dismissive, defensive responses than in addressing and attempting to solve problems. Some particularly unethical marketers (whom, as it turns out, have many skeletons in their own closets) even issue thinly-veiled (but empty) threats to “expose” their critics – seeing it as a “game,” but failing to comprehend that it is one they cannot help but lose. When the majority of the IM industry clearly exhibits a genuine commitment to integrity and transparency, and is willing to reject the unethical behavior of the “bad apples,” the public perception – and level of success – of individual IMers will improve significantly. And I see that as a win-win situation.
Jeanette, there will *always* be topics worthy of discussion. In any community, the most worthy topics center around ways to make the community better. Not as simple – or as much fun, perhaps – as complaining about others, but ultimately, the only way to ensure that one’s own community continues to thrive. Even more important than the success of an individual community however, is the well-being of the global community. We all share responsibility for working toward that global well-being, even when it comes at some short-term cost to our own subset.
This applies to both the IMers and their critics. Just as I believe the marketing industry has a responsibility to work more diligently toward raising its standards, I believe that the critics must also strive for integrity in their own efforts. Just as all marketers aren’t complicit in deceiving and fleecing unwary customers, neither are all critics bitter, jealous individuals, following some vindictive agenda.
Until both sides get past their efforts to create and vilify a strawman rather than observe, acknowledge, and address the shortcomings in their own community, and commit to working for a greater and more inclusive agenda, we’ll end up with little more than a continuing shouting match. And despite the immediate gratification that both “sides” apparently enjoy, nothing truly positive can come of the myopic behavior I describe.
I think I am the “someone” referred to by Tom, above comment #23. I did tell Tom I know “jealousy” is a factor in my current take on punditry/guru/expert/coaches/dare to be great/self improvement types.
But that doesn’t mean I don’t also see real problems with a deluge of too much general advise and not enough drilling down into niches and situational issues.
Information and opportunity is fracturing at an alarming rate, so should punditry.
-T